Global AI Governance and Digital Equity: A UN Perspective

Michael Krigsman: Welcome to CXO Talk, episode 862. I'm Michael Krigsman, and we are exploring perspectives on AI from the United Nations with Bernardo Mariano Jr. He's Assistant Secretary-General and Chief Information Technology Officer at the UN.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: What is core to the United Nations? The United Nations Charter from 1945, is really safe for succeeding generations. Look at human rights and social progress, as well as better standards of life. So, when you take that, the core United Nations Charter, and then you overlay that with the technology and the digital transformation, including AI. So, you want these transformations, these technologies, to really accelerate those core values.

We have the Sustainable Development Goals, the 17 goals. We want AI to accelerate the achievement of those goals. We have, of course, the social progress. We want to make sure that it accelerates that. We want to make sure that AI is used for good. We want to make sure that, of course, all associated risks that it brings are mitigated to make sure that humanity and the people of the world fully benefit from artificial intelligence and the whole transformation it is bringing to today's world.

Michael Krigsman: The goals that you're describing are very noble goals. But the question is, how does the UN turn those goals into reality on the ground?

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Difficult conversation. It's our everyday life in the United Nations. If you want a job that everybody agrees on, that's not the United Nations. Our role is to really bring together the different interests and conflicting interests to make sure that we chart the way to extract the maximum benefit of that.

So, we have the pact of the future that was recently adopted in the General Assembly in October of this year. And within the pact of the future, we have the Global Digital Compact. We do have initiatives such as Artificial Intelligence for Good, led by the International Telecommunication Union. We do have, for instance, the ethical use of AI that was published by UNESCO.

So, we do have instruments that we put together to make sure that as we go through this transformation, those who have and those who have not are not, they don't go far apart. And if you look at the Global Digital Compact, the five commitment actions include exactly that. So, to make sure that the digital divide is not exacerbated, to make sure that we use AI and frontier technology in a secure way, to make sure that the governance of data is for the betterment of humanity, and to ensure that we have some sort of international governance on AI.

Let me say for the very first time, in the United Nations General Assembly approved document, such as the pact of the future, there are 229 instances of the word digital. There are 70 instances of the word technology and almost 40 instances of the word artificial intelligence. Over 50 heads of state, in the last General Assembly, mentioned the word artificial intelligence as one of the key areas of concern that they want to address.

So, all to say, we have a role to play. We have all to say that we need to ensure this: the drive, the transformation that is moving at a very fast pace, benefits humanity in a way that we can all extract those benefits. So, those instruments are there for that.

Michael Krigsman: Can you describe the role that the General Assembly and that you believe that technology, digital, and artificial intelligence can play? Where is the role of these technologies?

Bernardo Mariano Jr. In the General Assembly the role of AI in that, within that context, is to make sure that we, as humanity, reap all the benefits. But we, as humanity, we mitigate all the risks. And we, as humanity, do not create this huge divide where those who have and those who have not, go far apart.

Let me just dive in a bit on those who have. If you go back 20 years, the technologies 20 years back were driving, basically a physical element, either because you have a device or you have a CD-ROM that contains a system, or you have basically something that the national legislation of a country could hang on and say, "Look, because you don't comply with these national regulations, I'm not going to allow you to bring these items into my country."

Today, that is gone. Because the borders, the physical borders that would allow countries to somehow protect themselves against some of the negative impacts of technology, they are no longer there. This means that the only instrument that we have to address those risks is really the international instruments where the United Nations plays a role to make sure that we have some sort of an international instrument.

Of course, we have now the European Union AI Act. We have the EU, UK, US AI treaty. We have some instruments at the regional level. But does not address the fact that the marketplace for those who have, those that control the technology, that are creators of the technology, is no longer the national border of the country where they operate. It's the whole world. So, therefore, this equitable access, this digital divide, has to be done, and has to be framed within the context of an international framework.

Michael Krigsman: Tell us about the Global Digital Compact, Bernardo.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Let me talk about these five commitment actions of the Global Digital Compact, which is very important. And those five commitment actions are commitment actions that we want countries, the 193 member states of the United Nations, or all countries in the world, to adopt.

The first commitment action is to close the digital divide, meaning that within the national borders, you have people with access and people without access. But also, within the international context, you have the owners of those algorithms of artificial intelligence that have the computing power, that artificial intelligence, and those who just consume it. Let alone the impact on the environment and other sustainable development goals, such as carbon emissions and all the rest. So that's the first commitment action, close the digital divide.

The second one is to expand the inclusion, which is really, is by closing the digital divide, you want to also expand that particular inclusion. The third is to foster a secure environment. We know that today, technology, including social media, is impacting the lives of people. I mean, we saw in Australia, a young girl committed suicide because of bullying in social media. We see elections changing directions because of misinformation.

So, we have to be aware of these impacts and then create a secure environment and good interoperability and also human rights protection within the context of the whole technology. The fourth is really this interoperability. We are in a world where impact actions in one national border or national jurisdiction do not mean any impact on a different jurisdiction. Today, that's not applicable. So whatever happens in whatever place, be it in Timbuktu, by the way, I did work in Timbuktu, or in New York, there is an impact on things that happen in different places.

The fifth is the establishment of international governance on AI. So those are some of the elements, the five commitment actions on the Global Digital Compact, which we want countries, companies, and the whole world to embrace and adopt within the national context, within the regional context, and as well as the global context.

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Well, we have some interesting questions that are coming in. And this is from Arsalan Khan on Twitter. And he says that we know the UN has great global goals, but what about nations that don't want to agree to those goals and therefore use AI for nefarious purposes. How does the UN address that?

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Let's create a scenario that there's no international framework. So imagine the impact of the same scenario just explained of a country that did not adopt or did not ratify that global framework. If there is no global framework, the impact will be three, four, five times worse because there's totally no global framework to operate.

And United Nations is composed by 193 member states. So we believe, and I'm sure it is, the majority of the world. So, it's true that there are few countries that are not, they might not adopt, they might not ratify, but that does not prevent us from having that framework. That doesn't prevent us from continuing to work with those countries to adopt. Doesn't prevent us to do the advocacy necessary to make sure that those countries, they adopt or at least acknowledge or domesticate in their national laws, even if they don't adopt, they don't ratify international convention, but in their national legislation, they adopt some of the principles.

Of course, the owner is not only on the government. The owner is also on the people of the country, the people of the world, to make sure that they also, especially the civil society, uses its own power to drive that change within the national context.

Michael Krigsman: Michelle Clark on LinkedIn says, "Are you aware of any of the top AI companies having embraced the Global Digital Compact?"

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: The Global Digital Compact was adopted by General Assembly in October. So we just, a month and a half into it. But the process to which the Global Digital Compact took place, it included a number of private sectors. Basically started with the call from the Secretary General to have an advisory board on AI, and they created, produced a report, which is titled AI for Humanity. I think you can Google and download that.

And within the AI for Humanity, they had like seven recommendations, and some of those recommendations are the ones that actually are being built in those five commitment actions in the Global Digital Compact. All to say that this was not, the Global Digital Compact was not just a creation of United Nations. It is a co-creation between government, private sector, civil society members that the Secretary General called them to establish these advisory board. And based on their report, this was created.

So, there were tough discussions in the process. There were companies involved in the discussion to establish that Global Digital Compact. But let me give you one example that I enjoyed very much by that interaction. I met young professionals, young innovators, that attended AI for Good in Geneva, hosted by ITU. And they created, basically they are promoting these adoption of AI principles by private sector.

So we see this energy of the Global Digital Compact in the private sector with innovators to say, "Let's make sure we push that responsible use of AI." So, kudos to these young folks that I had the privilege to meet them here in New York. But we want more, and we want these adoptions to actually not just be something that is driven by United Nations, but is something that we all embrace and we all in both those who have big profits with the technology, but those who are also startups to really embrace these principles that AI has to be used for good.

Michael Krigsman: Would it be fair to say that what you're describing falls under the category of governance? Is that the right term, or would you describe it in some other way?

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: It falls in two areas. One is governance, but also the other one is advocacy. So the governance is what we want to establish, to make sure that there are some principles that we embrace, adopt, and we use as we develop AI. So that's the development use. So that's one area.

But that advocacy requires all of us. Require all of us that have access, that have an audience, that have the ability to influence that audience to make sure that we push towards that direction because the negative impact is of great concern. It's not a small impact that will just impact my neighbor or myself or my little community. It's a global impact.

So, we really need the power of advocacy of the whole world to make sure that we come out of this and we leave to the next generation something that we can be proud of, that to say that in the transformation of artificial intelligence, we, the human beings that we are in the thick of it, be it from those that created, those that innovated, those that are using, those that are making profit out of it, those that are using it to improve productivity and create new business streams, we all come out of it proud in a way that the next generations will look back and say kudos to this generation for having done a great job.

Michael Krigsman: One could say that the advocacy is a set of goals and objectives, aspirations, and the governance is the set of rules that we agree to adhere to in order to implement or execute against those objectives. Is that a correct way of looking at it?

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Perfect. Yes. You said it better than me.

Michael Krigsman: Thank you.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: [Laughs]

Michael Krigsman: And on the topic of governance, we have a question from LinkedIn, again from Michelle Clark, who says, "How do you envision governance working?"

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Let's take telecommunication, right? Back in the '60s, '70s, or even earlier, when the Telex was the means of the world to communicate, the need to have standards and to have some principles around it emerged because otherwise, it wouldn't be possible to communicate. And International Telecommunication Union is there. Is one of the United Nations agencies that really brings the private sector, the public sector, and the governments to discuss the regulations around telecommunication.

So, we have a model. We have a model that works. Today, I'm able to call my mother that is sitting in a little village in Mozambique, thanks to that. So, we want this to evolve into AI and whole digital transformation, which has a different set of rules compared that does not involve the same level of physical infrastructure that telecommunication networks or telecommunication area involves because normally in telecommunication, you have the network operator in the country with either cell towers and cables and whatnot.

And into, and those two countries they need to communicate. Today on AI, if you take OpenAI as an example, they have the infrastructure in a couple of locations. They don't need infrastructure in all the countries to operate, and yet, the impact of OpenAI, it's across the whole world, regardless. So, therefore, the rules of engagements, the rules of the regulations and governance around AI is very different from the governance around telecom, that because you normally needed a national company in a national border within national infrastructure to operate.

In this case, you don't. So therefore, those rules need to change. The governance model needs to change to make sure that the impact is, then those negative impacts are mitigated in such a way that we can reap the benefits. Now, let me give you an example of, for instance, if I take misinformation as one example. If I'm from country A, and country B is, some company in country B is interfering in my election, in my national election. And then I'm using AI to generate all sorts of misinformation.

So country A will write to country B, say, "You, country B, you are interfering, getting interference in my election." But that country B is not a government that owns that particular company, and that particular company is operating within the legal framework of that legislation. So it's not infringing any law of that national government. Yet, is impact the other country with all the misinformation that goes. So, you see, the absence of that international governance and framework, basically makes these negative impacts to go pretty wild, I have to say, and with the impacts that we all don't want.

Michael Krigsman: I see what you mean when you said earlier that the UN is all about having an environment of conflict and different agendas coming together.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Yes, and that's why I say those difficult conversations of how to find that right balance that address the need to profit from the private sector, to start with, the need to evolve at from governments that those companies operate in those legislations, but also the need to protect human rights in those countries that will have the negative impact.

That's the fine balance United Nations needs to play, and United Nations needs to be equipped to know what is talking about in this area, which is very new because you can have also a situation where an early implemented regulation can stifle, basically stop innovation. Or a late implemented regulation or framework will be too late to address the negative impact.

So that balance of time, balance of what the regulation addresses, balance of the impact of the regulation and the impact of the profitability from the private sector, it's a fine balance that we need to operate, and there is no other entity other than United Nations to do that, to facilitate that, to host that, to create that environment, or to bring this convening power to bring all these players together to really come up with something that we can all be proud of, or the next generation can be proud of, as they look back into what we did in this particular century.

Michael Krigsman: On this topic of innovation, we have a very timely question from LinkedIn from Greg Walters, who says, "How do you plan to encourage both innovation and ethical use worldwide, including among non-member organizations that the UN does not directly regulate?"

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: It's almost like if you ask me a question, let's say I'm the private sector, me and my brother, we want to make some profit. One of us do the legal way, the other one do the illegal way. And we all make profit. But one is selling drugs, the other one is selling mobile phones.

So, what is core between that we, what's the core value that we can push? We can all agree, whether one is for profit or whether one is for nonprofit. It is really this ethical value that you just mentioned, meaning that, yes, you will have criminals that will try to use the technology for criminal purpose. And if you don't have the regulation, that will basically amplify and promote more criminals to join that particular enterprise or that particular practice.

So we need that regulation to make sure that we, it is a deterring factor. And the value that we bring, and these ethical values that we all are guided to through, is an ethical value that will bring both the nonprofit, the profits, and the civil society to work together. Now, we don't have a world where only the people that are have good intentions operate. The whole world has always a segment of population that think that they can use criminal activities to perform their acts. But if that, if there's no regulation that criminalizes some of these activities, of course, that becomes a challenge.

Now, let me talk about the country itself. Let's say that one country say, "I'm not going to adopt that." But we are in this intertwined and global world, meaning that if an individual in a particular country is committing a crime that is basically an international, there's an international law, international regulation that say that is a crime, that individual, yes, maybe in that particular jurisdiction will not be prosecuted, but he or she cannot travel out of that jurisdiction.

So we need to have something, even though we understand that there might be situations where in some geographies or some jurisdictions, that particular country or that particular jurisdiction, they did not adopt that. But as I said before, we don't also stop and sit comfortably with, but we also use advocacy. Think about human rights. Human rights was not adopted by many countries that adopted today. And we didn't say human rights, those who didn't adopt, we just sit comfortably, do nothing. We say, "No, we appreciate for those who adopted and as part of their national legislation, we continue," and that's the work of the Office of Human Rights, continue to push and to work with all those countries that we didn't adopt to incorporate in national legislation. So we have to have this two fronts approach of appreciating those, the early adopters, but also encouraging the later adopters to come on board.

Michael Krigsman: And again, that combination of advocacy combined with governance.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Exactly.

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So, this is a question from Arsalan Khan, who says, "The AI race involves algorithms and data collection. Are there datasets and algorithms that are available from the UN for other nations to use? And is the UN using AI to judge or evaluate other countries in different areas in order to direct resources?" So I think he's really asking these two things. One is about data and algorithms available for the common good, and number two, the use of AI internally at the UN.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: My role has two prongs. Part is to equip United Nations to leverage on technology and AI to optimize and improve performance and support programs that support countries on the use of AI to make sure that it accelerates the SDGs and all those. So that's the internal element. We do have internally. We also have a policy. We published recently a policy on AI. But also we have over almost more than 700 use cases that are ongoing in different areas, AI use cases. So that's one area.

The other area is really how do we then make sure that both because AI, there has three components. There's one is the power, computing power. The second is the algorithm, and the third is the data. And the computing power, it is, of course, we, because United Nations, we have to look at all the things, including carbon emission. So, we are concerned about the increase of the increased need of power and the increased emission of carbon emissions that these will have, especially for companies that had already committed to carbon zero emission by 2030. Now they're basically saying they will not be able to meet that because of the investments that they're making in the computing power space.

Now let's, on the algorithm, of course, that's whole innovation around it. There is a number of young professionals that are working very hard to make those algorithms and our hope is to make those algorithms to address, to not be too biases, to make sure that some issues around the accuracy of those algorithms in terms of generation of the response or elimination of the hallucination it takes place.

Let me delve down to data, and that's where also some concern, we have some concerns around that. On the data side, one is, of course, quality of data. So the Global Digital Compact talks about the governance on that. That's one concern. The other is to exacerbate some of the exacerbation of the biases these data have because we have, our data has a number of biases. And if we just let algorithm use that data without the human intervention, that's why the Secretary General likes to say the humans are in charge, not the AI. To make sure that we address those issues.

When I was at the World Health Organization, as a CIO there back in 2018, we're already talking about how can we make sure that the trusted source of data is the one that bots and algorithms use to make sure that we don't have negative impact or minimize negative impact. So there are some work being done in that space to see how we can do some discussion to say, for instance, we could have a data set that algorithms test because you see, if a company in North America creates an algorithm, tests that algorithm with data from North America, and uses that algorithm to generate content for Africa, you might have a lot of issues there. So we want to make sure that the geographies and the contextual issues of each geography is addressed as these algorithms generate the different responses in the context of where the question is being asked, for the context of the country where the question is being asked.

So that is something that we're still working in terms of how to establish that, and then the proposal of establishing an AI office, which is part of the pact of the future, is really to address this area. But I will, to close, I want to also address the issue of equity. If we want to make sure that the fact that, in the fact that the labor force that trained the algorithm is in the Global South, we do not exploit the value of the work they're doing and the remuneration of that work appropriately.

And we have seen some issues around that, especially the International Labor Organization has highlighted some of the issues around the remuneration for those workers that train algorithms, and they are sitting in the Global South where and their remuneration is not really appropriate for the work that they're doing and versus the profit those companies are making. So, so yes, we have some issues on the data side, and we need to work towards that. We have, we are not where we would want to be yet, but we have now the Global Digital Compact, and we can chart the way to make sure that those issues are addressed.

Michael Krigsman: It's very interesting hearing you talk about issues around equity. You have a more nuanced view than many in the private sector because of the charter, the goal of the UN is operate for unity and for good as opposed to the charter or the goal being profit.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: They're not mutually exclusive. Let me give you an example of the pharmaceutical area because I was the CIO at the World Health Organization, I can always talk about that. If I take the hepatitis C treatment as one example. The treatment of hepatitis C when the company innovated that, created that, the cost was around almost close to $100,000 per treatment. Then, if you go to India, the cost of that treatment is $1,000 for the whole treatment.

Then you can think, all right, if as a company, I will lose profit, but not really. Because if your market is, if you are making, I don't know, a billion dollars out of 100,000 people, you might be actually making $10 billion out of 5 billion people at a much lower price. When we talk about equity, it's not just equity to lower the profit of the companies. That's not our intention to bankrupt any private sector.

The intention is to say, "Yes, you can have a client." And now I come back to AI. The AI today, many companies charge somewhere around $20 per month per user to use the AI, be it ChatGPT4 or other, let's say Microsoft Copilot, maybe Gemini is a little cheaper, but all to say that, yes, you can have the $20 per month charged to use generative AI, and that $20 per month, maybe your market space will be, let's say, 500,000 people that use that. But if you make that price $5 per month or $1 per month, and you get 2 or 5 billion people using it, as a private sector company, you still make money. But then you also contribute to the access to that.

So, same concept in the pharmaceutical area where, I mean, I think there's a saying that you can have $1 million from one person, or you can have $1 million from 1 million people. The most sustainable $1 million is the one that comes from 1 million people and not the one that comes from one person. So that's really the concept that we're trying to say, and I'm trying to put it forward to say, access, equitable access, doesn't always mean lower margins of profit, but it means more access to people that can afford to make it affordable. But also create this equitable world where you don't have those privileged ones that have and those unprivileged ones that don't have.

Michael Krigsman: I see that you're not making a value judgment, but rather you are trying to align incentives around the goals of each of the participants. Whatever's important to them, you're trying to unify the incentives at the end of the day to align activity around that goal.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Exactly. In United Nations, that's what we do pretty much all the time to have these different perspectives to come to the table and see how we can extract value. If you look at the example I gave is an example where the World Health Organization is very keen and pushes it, be it on hepatitis C that I mentioned, be it on HIV, be it on COVID vaccines that when we had COVID. But on technology, we need to follow the same concept. We need to make sure that it's not just a price that is established for those who have. It's a price that is established according to geography that allows that access, but without putting the company at risk of go bankrupt because they cannot generate the profit that they need to generate.

Michael Krigsman: We have a question from Lisbeth Shaw on Twitter, who says, "How does the digital divide impact the AI divide among countries? And how does that impact the ability for countries to carry out the ethical use of AI?"

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: The digital divide and AI divide go hand in hand. But we have work being done to minimize that digital divide. International Telecommunication Union and other UN organizations are working towards that. Access to broadband is still a problem. You still have a large segment of the population, I think if I'm not wrong, somewhere around 2 billion that don't have access to broadband. So that, but the progress of that is very, in the last couple of years, you see a good progress around access to broadband.

But we want to make sure that these new, some private sector would call it new customers that embraced broadband, but we want to make sure that as, for those who are already in that digital ecosystem, we do not exacerbate this divide with those new ones that will come. So we want to address the digital divide within the ones that already have access. Making sure that not, we want to make sure that the digital divide and the digital access to those tools in those, for those, the segment of the world population that have access to broadband, is addressed to ensure that the new commerce, they benefit from it.

It's true that we might not be able to change the past, but we can change the future. And that change of the future starts with all of us working together to make sure that AI is not just for those privileged ones and those that are not privileged ones, they become basically the source of data without taking any benefit. When I was the CIO at the World Health Organization, also there Director of Digital Health, I mentioned, I wrote an article about data and the new, data and the new money. Because if my data set goes to benefit a company, we have to also ask how much of that benefit comes to me as the source of the data.

So, those discussions are difficult discussion. They need to take place. I think there's some article I saw about the writers who wrote books and professors who wrote articles, and AI is using those data sets to ingest into the model, and the model generates a response. What is the benefit to those? We do not want to repeat previous centuries' situations where there were early adopters; they extract greater benefit to the detriment of those who actually provide the grand work to make that particular endeavor successful.

So I'm very happy that the United Nations is on the point at the right time, at the beginning of it. And I'm very happy with the fact that we are very conscious about the pace, fast pace of AI. Of course, I'm worried that we might lose the race, but I'm confident that with the support of all countries and all members of United Nations, we will keep a pair with the pace of the technology to ensure that the benefit is extracted for everyone.

Michael Krigsman: We have another question from Greg Walters on LinkedIn who's asking, "Can you talk about differences between the approach of the UN when it comes to AI and ethics versus the EU, which has a very strict or detailed set of regulations?"

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: We work with all different interests that are sometime far apart and then what the result of the adopted or endorsed pact is a compromise between, let's say, the most conservative approach to the most progressive approach. I think if you go to Europe, I think there's perhaps that gap between the conservative and progressive might be much narrower compared to the United Nations space where you have these 193 countries.

So, as a result, of course, you might have the EU AI Act that has a number of details. That's one that is more, maybe, that goes to the level of detail where the United Nations takes, operates a little bit of a higher level to allow these, to allow countries to either navigate towards a progressive approach or towards conservative approach within that framework that the member states agreed that they can safely and they can comfortably operate.

That's one angle. The other angle is really when do you bring the regulation? Do you bring at the beginning when the hype is high, or do you bring when later on after the hype cycle? One of the examples I used to give and still give now is that we all tend to forget that technology has always a hype cycle, a cycle, a period of a lot of promises. And we need to allow that technology to go through that hump to then stabilize into what it can really develop.

Because that hype cycle, if you create a regulation during the hype, that regulation will be very strict because the hype will promise things that actually technology doesn't deliver. Now, if you create a regulation after that hype cycle, then that regulation will not be as strict because the disillusionment of the hype cycle will take place. And then, then we'll be in that stable space where then what the technology can really do is not hyped. Therefore, the regulation will not tackle a hyped statement or hyped intention or hyped promise of the technology. So all to say that we have these two perspectives of progressive, conservative, and then the perspective of when the regulation comes.

Michael Krigsman: We have another really interesting question from Twitter, again from Arsalan Khan, and I'll ask you to answer this one very quickly because we're simply going to run out of time. He says, "How is the UN partnering with organizations outside the UN, and are those organizations sharing their algorithms and data with the UN?"

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: We have a framework that allow, and a number of agencies, a framework that allow the private sectors and the civil society to engage. I mean, if I take International Telecommunication Union as an example, or International Labor Organization as an example, we have those frameworks. Now, do they share their algorithm with us? The answer is no.

That we do, we are, as I mentioned before, we are working to have the, on the data side, to see, make sure that we create a framework on data governance that allow these algorithms to lean on data that is accurate, but also on data that does not have too many biases and things and some of the ethical principles are adhered to. So, it's work in progress, but no company shared algorithm with United Nations because that's part of intellectual property.

But that takes us to next question of open source. And we are actually, we are convening the open source community to come together because we see a big role of open source community in this space to make sure that the alternative to proprietary systems continues to exist. And we want open source community to drive in this AI era.

Michael Krigsman: And I assume that you're trying to exert some influence on the open-source community in order to approach their technology work within the framework of UN goals for inclusiveness and being equitable and so on.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Yes, and I have to say the open-source community has matured on its own without the UN. And we just came now to say we had actually the second open source for good summit that brought all the open-source community together to make sure that we also look at those open-source tools that are very important for critical digital public infrastructure that benefit from resources. But the open-source community has been working very well as a community, but we want it to go to the next level, especially now that with AI, we want to make sure that the fact that AI providers or AI companies provide a space of free use that does not relegate open-source community to not having to do anything. So that's really where we want to make sure that that community is providing an alternative to many developing countries and we want that to continue to happen.

Michael Krigsman: And of course, with the UN's convening power, as you described earlier, creates an ideal forum, I would think, to help infuse these values into what the open-source community is doing.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Exactly. Exactly.

Michael Krigsman: Can you offer advice or lessons to business people based on your experience with AI ethics, governance, and so forth at the UN?

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Do not give up. No matter how difficult it is, that engagement from UN to private sector or from private sector to the UN, or to with the government, we should not give up. No matter how bad it looks, or how huge the task looks ahead, we should not give up.

So my advice is persistence, perseverance to make, to ensure that we all come out of this proud, but also our next generation come out of it proud. From the United Nations, please be assured that we do not give up. No matter how bad the situation. Look, you see the world and number of wars. One might say, "Look, this looks so bad." We never give up. We keep, we persist in the pursuit of a solution that brings peace.

And in the case of technology, we'll pursue the solution that brings equitable access, that brings, creates do-not-harm component of AI hinged in these 10 principles of ethical use of AI promoted by, published by UNESCO that we want to make sure that the world adheres to, and we bring, extract, and enjoy the great benefits that artificial intelligence can bring to this world.

Michael Krigsman: And with those inspiring words, we are out of time.

A huge thank you, Bernardo Mariano Junior is Assistant Secretary General and Chief Information Technology Officer at the UN. Bernardo, thank you for coming back to CXO Talk.

Bernardo Mariano Jr.: Thank you, Michael. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, and thank you, everyone, for this great engagement. Thank you.

Michael Krigsman: And thank you to everyone who watched, especially those who asked such great questions. You guys are amazing.

Now, before you go, subscribe to our newsletter. Check out cxotalk.com, subscribe to our YouTube channel.

We have extraordinary shows coming up. Next week, we're discussing these issues with someone from the CIA. That should be interesting. So check it out and thanks so much, everybody. Again, Bernardo, I'm so grateful to you. Thank you for being here, and we'll see you again next time. Take care, everybody. Bye-bye.