What is the Experience Economy? A Discussion with Michael J. Wolf

Michael Wolf: You can think about the functionality. You can think about all the features. But at the end of the day, it's got to come down to either the user or the customer.

About the technology and media convergence

Michael Krigsman: Media, technology, entertainment: one of the world's foremost experts on this topic is Michael Wolf, Co-Founder and CEO of Activate Consulting. Previously, he was the president and chief operating officer of MTV.

Michael Wolf: We're a management consulting firm. We're focused entirely on four industries: technology, Internet, media, and entertainment.

Michael Krigsman: Michael, you've released a report very recently (during the past week) about this convergence—attention economy or the experience economy—but it's really about how consumers, users relate to technology and media. Tell us about that report and the data.

Michael Wolf: Every year for the last seven years, we spend the better part of nine to ten months creating what we call our technology and media outlook. It's intended to cover the major topics that we think are important in that moment.

We think not just are important in that moment. What is going to be important for the next year? What's going to be important in 2022?

To a large extent, as a firm, we tell everybody who works for us, "You have to live in the future." How else will we help our clients own the future if you don't live in it?

We're always looking forward. What's going to happen next year?

We just put this out last week. It's about 200 slides. They're all available on our website, activate.com. It covers the major areas not only that we think are important but that we think are going to be critical.

It begins with the most important person in technology and media, and that's the user. Everything we do as a firm begins that way. In fact, we tell everybody that our North Star is the user.

Whenever we get into trouble, when we're looking at a problem we can't solve, we say, "We broke our own rule. Let's go back to the user, and we can solve the problem."

Michael Krigsman: What is the nature of the user, or can we say the technology-media-entertainment consumer?

Michael Wolf: You can. We look at this like the consumer, the customer, the audience, it's all the same, but it's people. That's the way to look at it.

So much of what we do begins with how people are spending their time and attention. How are they engaging with media? What's capturing their attention? Who is doing it? Where are they spending, whether it's music, video, or video games? Where are they spending their time and attention and how?

Also, by the way, I should point out, what are they doing at the same time? Multitasking is a reality. Music, for example, is an ambient medium. You're doing something else when you're listening to music. Many times, you're doing something else when you're watching TV.

Technology and media convergence

Michael Krigsman: We all know that consumers these days have the attention span of a gnat, basically. What does all of this imply for businesses? What's going on with these folks, with these consumers, and what does it mean for companies?

Michael Wolf: You're right, attention is short. But the attention in little bites can still build a billion-dollar business or a multi-billion dollar business. And so, we do see a lot of compression. We see what was historically people watching a full television show now going down to clips of the show.

I can watch, for example, an entire newscast. I can watch an entire NBC newscast now on YouTube. But I may decide that I want to watch pieces of it. I may want to watch a three-minute segment of MSNBC.

What's happened is video is getting shorter, and now we end up with TikTok, which the videos are extremely short. The people are watching them, but it captures a lot of their attention. Somebody can spend 20, 25 minutes a day watching TikTok videos.

Every technology and media platform has recognized this because all of them are now adding short-form video, whether it's Snap, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. They're all adding short-form videos.

This comes down to, what is it that people are going to spend their time, and how do they chop up that time? If we look at the course of a day, you see that the average user is spending five hours a day just watching videos.

It's multitask time, so they may be doing something at the same time. They're watching a movie but, at the same time, they're on their phone with Twitter, or they're using Snap to communicate with friends.

Short attention spans do not mean necessarily short time spent with technology and media. When we consider all of the hours in a day that somebody will spend consuming technology and media, and you look at that from a multitasking time, it's about 13 hours a day.

It's literally 13 hours a day, and you begin with, as I said, 5 hours a day on video. It's videos followed by music and audio. That's followed by video games. This is all on average. Then you get down to Web browsing, social, and messaging.

Michael Krigsman: What I find kind of extraordinary is, on the one hand, you've got TikTok videos that are just a few seconds in length and that are explicitly designed to capture our attention, move on to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, to the next, and grab you there. But at the other end of the spectrum, you have games like Second Life or the Metaverse that Facebook is now talking about that are designed to bring you in and absorb you for much of your daily working life even.

Michael Wolf: Even if you have a short attention span, you may be spending a great deal of time in a game. You may spend a lot of time in Red Dead Redemption or in Grand Theft Auto because there's so much happening.

Short attention span doesn't mean short time spent in a medium. On the contrary, the game is set up to capture that short attention span and keep you going.

I think that when you consider many of the major forms of media, yes, long-form is important. People are binging shows. (My wife and my kids and I) we binged two seasons of Ted Lasso, and our attention was focused on watching that.

We're going to see both. It's at both ends of the spectrum.

Michael Krigsman: We have a question from Twitter. Chris Peterson asks, "If short-form video is taking off, what's the big differentiator between," he says, "Vine and TikTok?" Vine was Twitter's streaming—

Michael Wolf: Yes.

Michael Krigsman: –video that they no longer have. What makes TikTok so successful and Vine died on the vine? They canceled it. They killed it off.

Michael Wolf: There are some big differences. One of them is Vine (similar to YouTube), an influencer medium. The videos that are the most popular tended to be from influences.

One of the best influencers on Vine was Josh Peck who you might remember from the old Nickelodeon show Drake & Josh. It's almost as if you weren't a well-known creator or influencer, nobody watched you. It's a similar challenge with YouTube.

TikTok, everybody is a creator. Everybody can be a star. Yes, you've got stars like Charli D'Amelio, but you've also got people that nobody has heard of.

Daniel Mac, who you never see, Daniel Mack is the guy that goes up to people and says, "Hey, what do you do for a living?" and "Did you go to college?"

What we see is the algorithm serves up not only what you're interested in now but what are you going to be interested in next. Sometimes, you look at your algorithm, and for some reason I'm getting a lot of videos of people taking care of alligators. I don't know why.

Michael Krigsman: [Laughter]

Michael Wolf: But it engages you. Now, of course, you can always swipe past them. The medium is really set up in a way that you go fast if you don't like what you're seeing. You push forward. If you want to see more, you can go deeper.

The algorithm learns what you like but, also as importantly, everybody can create TikToks. And, by the way, you don't know. The algorithm will end up serving it to a bunch of people.

Consumers are “slaves to the algorithm”

Michael Krigsman: We are becoming slaves to this algorithm. Television, for many years now, has focused on grabbing attention. You were president of MTV Networks. Is that an important of this convergence now between media and technology, this intersection between media, technology, and entertainment?

Michael Wolf: Technology, over time, if we go back to the beginning of the entertainment business, you can see that technology continued to create new opportunities, new exploitations for content, and new ways (most of all) for people to experience it.

We went from broadcast television and then to cable television. Cable television gave us a wide assortment of programming, of linear channels to watch.

What's happened in the last 15 years is that people are increasingly deciding what they want to watch.

In the past, they were subject to a schedule. You had a scheduler at each of these networks.

Today, what's most important are the shows, the personalities, but also the viewers' ability to decide what they want or the platforms, the algorithms to say, "Here's what you should be watching. Here's what should be of interest to you."

Stars in shows that, in the past, existed on television, now they're going to exist in different forms, chopped up.

I mentioned news earlier. People are watching the shows that they like, the personalities and shows that they like, on television. But, to a large extent, they're increasingly watching them on YouTube because I don't have to wait for the newscast.

Whatever network it might be, then I can watch it. Yes, whatever you're interested in, whether it's Hannity or Anderson Cooper, you're going to be able to not just watch them on their channels, but also go into YouTube (or on their own sites) and pick out what you want to watch. It's a dramatic difference in terms of the amount of control that the viewer has.

Michael Krigsman: Then does the issue or the fundamental point become using the algorithm to give the users the appearance of control and, at the same time, serving up those bits of information (based on the data and the history that the algorithm determines) that the user will find engaging? There we come back to engagement and attention.

Michael Wolf: Precisely. The recommendations are important. Algorithm sounds like a scary term, but it really comes down to recommendations.

Yes, you want to get yourself lost. You can get lost in YouTube for a long time because it keeps serving up.

During shelter in place, my family and I did a lot of cooking. Every time there was a cooking video, like, we learned how to make an omelet, there were three more that came up that showed you how to make an omelet in three different ways.

It's no different than the advertising that's at the end of a program that says, "Watch the next one," or in the middle of a program that says, "Coming up on the next hour." It's another set of recommendations, and it makes it a very exciting experience for a lot of people.

What are influencers and super-users important?

Michael Krigsman: It completely makes it engaging and, as you say, one can get fully absorbed. Now, Michael, you use the term "influencers" earlier. One of the topics that your report touches on is this notion of super-users. Can you explain super-users and tell us why that's so important?

Michael Wolf: Over the last years when we've done our research, we've observed that there are a set of consumers—they're about 26% of all users—who account for the great majority of usage in media across all forms (in e-commerce) in terms of subscriptions for wireless plans. Those users, we call them super-users.

They're going to be increasingly important to anybody that's in these industries. But they're also going to be important more broadly because they account for a disproportionate amount of the spend. That 26% accounts for almost 70% of all spend on e-commerce. It accounts for almost 80% of all spending on video games or even more when you're looking at audio and podcast.

In the past, companies looked at the world, and they said, "We're going to do broad marketing." It's the transition from mass marketing.

Today, we believe strongly that if you're operating an e-commerce site, if you're doing online grocery, whatever you might want to do, your critical task is identifying super-users and super-serving them.

To give you a sense, I showed you before the numbers around average (13 hours a day) of multitask media time and attention. If I break this apart for all other users versus super-users, all other users – so the 73% of all users – they on average are 10 hours a day of engagement. Super-users, almost 17 hours. That's how you come up with this average.

It's extraordinary and, by the way, a lot of times they're the same people. The same people who are over-indexing on using audio are the same people who are over-indexed on video. It has to do with this interest and propensity to spend time, this interest and ability to spend money.

We're at a point where practically every business is saturated, has reached a large percentage of the population. Now, you've got to go for the people who are the most valuable.

Michael Krigsman: Is there a relationship between the super-users that you were describing and influencers, people who are nexus points that other folks listen to?

Michael Wolf: Your super-users end up being the amplifiers. In other words, if you're a super-user, you're going to watch TikToks. You're going to watch YouTube. You're going to watch something else. You're going to see those influencers, and you're going to point out who they are. You're going to amplify them to your friends.

That's the other thing we see, which is these are people who make a huge difference. They tell their friends. They amplify. They post, themselves.

It's hard to become an exciting and overwhelming influencer without super-users serving as recommenders for you and amplifiers. I know that's a lot of big terms, but it really just comes down to great influences, they've got to go for the people who are the most interested in watching the most.

Why is business software so boring?

Michael Krigsman: We have another really interesting question from Twitter. This is from Arsalan Khan. Arsalan says, "We're moving towards these great experiences on the consumer side. But why is our business software still so horrible and boring?" [Laughter]

Michael Wolf: I think that some of this is enterprise software tends to move a lot slower. In consumer applications, the operating philosophy is "launch and learn. Keep testing. Go and update."

Enterprise software, business software, you've got to get it right. Somebody can't lose a text. But already we're seeing experiences, enterprise experiences that are getting consumerized.

Slack has been fantastic in terms of messaging inside of a lot of companies. It relates iMessage, WhatsApp, Signal, and others that weren't so great. It certainly replaces email for a bunch of people. There are all the add-ins and the plugins that make these into great ways of getting to know your colleagues or doing your work and your workflow.

Then there are applications that are fun. There's an application called Donut that randomly selects somebody in your company that you don't know and the two of you should get together and have a coffee. In these days, a virtual coffee or virtual Zoom coffee.

Facebook just launched their program, Horizons. You put on an Oculus headset, and you can meet with other people in a room with their avatars. It's definitely gamifying an experience.

I agree. I think that enterprises will go a long way. In cases of consumer and enterprise, we're going to see them reverse in polarity.

What I mean by that is Microsoft has its HoloLens, which is really an incredible AR (augmented reality) headset. It's very expensive. It's over $2,500 compared to an Oculus, which can be (a cheaper model) $300.

We know that's going to be consumerized. We know the device, it's a superior device, but it's got to be at a cheaper price point so that not only can consumers use it, but it can be widespread usage within businesses.

Michael Krigsman: Actually, I've spoken with a number of enterprise software companies that are using virtual reality and augmented reality for things like repair, maintenance. The repair person shows up at the location. Instead of having a thick set of manuals or even an iPad, they can actually see the part and the part that's exploded. They see it in context with the instructions. I mean that's a very practical use. It's a basic use, but a very practical use, in the enterprise for this kind of converging technology.

Michael Wolf: It gives you a sense. What you're seeing today is only the beginning.

If I'm repairing an aircraft engine, I have my AR headset on. It's going to be about the diagnosis, running all sorts of statistics on it, making sure that the parts are in good shape, going back.

It's not a standalone device. These are devices that are hooked into a tremendous amount of processing power. In fact, we believe from all of our research that augmented reality will be a much broader set of applications because of enterprise.

If I'm a doctor, I should be able to use the processing power as well as the visual power of the headset so I can look at a patient, and I can know what's going on. I can do much better instant diagnosis than I would have been able to do going to (as you were saying) an iPad or looking up symptoms in another way.

Michael Krigsman: I think the issue in the enterprise, as you said, in this case, is the size and the weight of the headsets.

Michael Wolf: Right. It looks like a hardhat. [Laughter] A hardhat with a visor, that's what it looks like, and a boom microphone.

What is the metaverse?

Michael Krigsman: Now, Michael, you've brought up Facebook several times. Of course, Facebook just announced that they are now the Meta company building the Metaverse, and they will invest billions of dollars over the next decade. Tell us about the Metaverse. What is the Metaverse, first off?

Michael Wolf: You would have thought that 2021 was the year that everybody discovered the metaverse. Bear with me for a second because I'll give you our definition.

People have been talking about this for the longest time. Going back to games or applications like Second Life and Sims where you could go and spend a great deal of time in a virtual world, in some ways a digital twin of the world that we're living in today.

But if you look at the kinds of things that people are talking about today, the digital twin of the world, there's really only one set of examples about that, and that's video gaming. We look at Fortnite, Minecraft, Roblox, and a whole set of other games, Decentraland, and others. You begin to see these are in fact experiences inside of games that are not about gameplay.

In NBA 2K 2022, I can do a lot of stuff. I can have coffee with friends. I can shoot hoops with friends. I can do all sorts of things social, but they don't have to do with playing the game.

What this really comes down to is we have 60%, so roughly 57% of the United States are gamers, and 60% of those gamers are doing other things inside of games.

They're in Animal Crossing. They're dating. In fact, last year we had weddings inside of Animal Crossing.

Earlier this year, Lil Nas X gave a concert – a concert – inside of Roblox. We're going to continue to see these kinds of activities that happen inside of games.

Now let's talk about what's the metaverse. There are lots of complicated things out there, definitions. It's really three things.

It's nongaming activities inside of games. Those are the metaverse platforms.

Second of all, it's users. It's users as creators, users being able to create their own games, their own applications, bringing in the things that they want to do.

Then third of all, it's virtual reality as the way of experiencing those virtual worlds and augmented reality as the way of bridging from a digital world into a physical world.

That's it. Those are the things.

Eventually, we'll get to this entire digital twin of your universe where you'll do everything inside. All digital activity – search, social, messaging, events – you should be able to do those in (let's call them games today) metaverse platforms in the future.

Our point of view when you look at Facebook renaming itself Meta, Microsoft talking about an enterprise metaverse, each of these companies are talking about their own metaverse platforms. They're not necessarily interoperable, and so there's not going to be one metaverse. Let's forget about that.

It's not one metaverse. It's not like one Internet. There's not going to be any one company that will own the metaverse.

Those big technology companies, one way or the other, have to get into video games. If you think about all the elements of video games, whether it's a video game service or it's a headset or it's video game studios or cloud gaming, each of the major technology companies are playing in some of those areas, but they're not playing in all of them.

The ones that are the closest to playing all of them – surprise – is the company that's supposed to be an enterprise company is Microsoft. Then you look at Sony and some others. But Facebook, there are a lot of white spaces. Facebook really doesn't have the kind of games yet that are these deep, involved metaverse platforms.

I've given you a long explanation, but the other part of this that is so fascinating is you're going to see activities, economies inside of these games.

Roblox already has an economy. People can create your own games. You can charge for them. You can already participate in e-commerce. There are brands, everything from Coca-Cola to Citibank that are already building branding inside these metaverse platforms.

You've got an economy. You've got all sorts of activities. We're going to see more of this. It's not going to necessarily be one day we wake up and, boom, there's the Facebook metaverse.

Michael Krigsman: This notion of there not being a single metaverse; when you say it, it seems like an obvious point. Of course, every major tech vendor is going to want to build their walled garden, just as we have the Google ecosystem.

Michael Wolf: Yes.

Michael Krigsman: Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, and so forth. What's the path to get there? What do you see happening realistically over the next several years, as opposed to looking ten years and tens of billions of dollars out? Just over the next few years, where is this going to be going, and what will be the impact on business leaders?

Michael Wolf: We ask everybody in our company. We tell them, you have to live in the future. We're looking at the near future, not necessarily the future that's too far off. That's why it really makes sense to talk about it this way.

We're going to see a number of things that are going to happen in the next year. Every one of the major technology platforms is going to try to find a way in which it can create their own immersive environments. As I said earlier, it's most likely going to start with games and then branch out from there.

We are going to see a massive amount of investment, investment in everything from interactivity to digital property to augmented reality, virtual reality, and it's not just going to be from technology companies. It's going to be from brands that want to have a role in this. It's going to be from companies that want to sell digital merchandise and be online. I think we're about to see a massive wave of investment from a large number of companies all trying to stake out their position.

Part of the reason why no one company is going to own it all is because everybody learned the lesson. The Internet created monopolies. Right now, we have Google, Amazon, and Facebook, which control most of the advertising around the world. You end up with it's very hard for smaller publishers and smaller companies to succeed in this.

No one is going to make that mistake again. We're just not. No one is going to let that happen.

In the same way that the people that dominated media didn't end up dominating the Internet. There's no media brand that really made that transition or that turn in the way that it ended up. The biggest media companies did not end up being the biggest Internet companies.

We should see a lot of investment here, and it's going to be exciting for users because there's going to be so much more that you can do. But you're going to have to get comfortable with this kind of level of emersion into digital environments. You can go in and go out, but it is very analogous to games.

Michael Krigsman: Michael, many of the people who watch CXOTalk are business leaders and various types of enterprise businesses. What does all of this mean for business leaders? When we talk about the attention economy or the experience economy, and I think about personalization – there's so much emphasis right now on personalizing marketing, for example – what does all of this mean for business leaders who are listening to this and saying, "Okay. Great. There's all this stuff swirling around. What do I do?"

Michael Wolf: If you're not thinking about how do you create a better and extensive experience for your consumers, you're going to miss out on a huge wave of opportunities. It's looking at this, and we look at this all the time for our clients, our enterprise clients, big business.

We're always looking at what can you do that can add a level of interactivity, a level of entertainment, a level of deeper involvement and engagement. Some examples are from e-commerce.

Porsche now has an app where literally your driveway becomes a showroom. You can take your phone. You can look at your driveway (or anywhere else). You can pick out the color of your Porsche. You can pick out the wheels. You can turn the device and see how that would look around.

Another example of that is IKEA. IKEA has apps that allow you to go in a room. You can look in your living room and see how would that sofa fit there. It's way before a moving van shows up.

We're going to see that kind of interactivity that users are really comfortable with in consumer applications and moving into the enterprise. I mentioned Slack earlier, but it's not just going to stop there.

Zoom, an application that if we look at the beginning of last year, video conferencing wasn't something that was as widespread. Today, it's as easy as Google Hangouts or Teams or Zoom.

I expect that every company that we work with is looking at the experience economy. They're creating two-sided marketplaces. They're bringing buyers together in a way that is modern, in a way that provides an experience.

If the experience isn't as good as what you can do as a consumer, you're going to lose. The bar has already been set for what people view as quality and engaging, worth their time.

Michael Krigsman: Every technology executive that I speak with—

Michael Wolf: And you speak to a lot, Michael. [Laughter]

Michael Krigsman: I definitely speak with a lot from very large technology companies to startups. Universally, people talk about replicating that consumer experience in enterprise software. It sounds like what you're saying is that companies, technology companies will be forced to put rocket fuel on this trend of making their products more consumer-friendly.

Michael Wolf: Absolutely, the rocket fuel. I love the analogy, Michael, because it's really about accelerating these applications, and so being able to know if you're in a company and when you're ordering parts, you're providing services, or you're selling trucks or cars.

For example, cars have been one of the categories that have been the slowest to move online. Roughly, 2% of all vehicles in the United States – and there are about 58 million vehicles that are sold each year – roughly 2% of them are sold through e-commerce, totally touchless: you go online, you buy it, somebody drops it off.

Sites like Carvana and Vroom, they've now changed that. You're comfortable selling your car online. You're comfortable buying a car online. We see the 2% going as high as 15% within the next three years.

You can't deliver an experience that's any worse than what you can do on Amazon. You want a "Buy it Now" button. You want to be able to select what you want. You want to be able to select a set of colors or set of features. But then from that point on, it's got to be a great consumer experience.

If this happens, and we strongly believe our forecast is correct, then 15% of the 60 million cars that are likely to be sold in 3 years are going to be sold touchless through e-commerce. That's over $150 billion in e-commerce revenue that wasn't there before. You can spend an enormous amount of money on a car, and it's a category that you would have thought (a couple of years ago) wasn't going to go online so quickly.

Michael Krigsman: We have a few more questions from Twitter. What will the metaverse economy look like? Any thoughts on that?

Michael Wolf: It's going to be a lot of the transactions that you can do today in the real world: owning property, advertising, banking, selling, buying. Anything you can do in the real world or in the virtual world, you'll be able to do in the metaverse.

Michael Krigsman: We have another question from Arsalan Khan. Thanks, Arsalan. He says, "Are there opportunities for cross-industry experiences that connect different organizations together and provide seamless experience across different companies?" I'm thinking, for example, supply chain, business partners, things like that.

Michael Wolf: Think about it quite simply. You're going to have a number of different metaverse platforms from each of the major technology companies and media companies.

What bridges it? They're not interoperable so easily, so what bridges it? It's applications. It's payments. It's Spotify. It's e-commerce. It can be business e-commerce. It can be consumer e-commerce.

The connections are going to happen through third-party applications, and the third-party applications may be ones you own. If you're selling cars, you're going to sell them in every metaverse platform, not just one.

Michael Krigsman: Another question. I love taking the questions from Twitter and LinkedIn. It's great. You gave examples from CPG (Consumer Packaged Goods) companies. How will the experience economy be meaningful to industrial companies?

Michael Wolf: Some of this comes down to the interface. Some of it comes down to the information that you can get. A great example of this is less industrial but let me start with industrial.

Industrial is using applications like augmented reality to bridge that gap between what you're doing on your computer or on your phone into the real world. We talked about those kinds of applications in terms of repairing an aircraft, but there's going to be a great deal more.

It's going to be about creating marketplaces. We're going to see marketplaces for everything from parts to automobiles to materials. The marketplaces are much more efficient and those have to be presented in a way that is an experience that is as good or better than what a consumer can do in a lot of other places.

Michael Krigsman: Again, placing the user in the center and making sure, as you said, those experiences are as good or better than what the consumer can receive elsewhere.

Michael Wolf: As an enterprise, as a company, you can think about the functionality, you can think about all the features, but at the end of the day, it's got to come down to either the user or the customer.

A great example of this is what's happening with legal information. It's so much better than it was before. It applies a number of the mechanics that augmented reality, artificial intelligence, to something a number of years ago that somebody had to sit there with a book, go through, and find.

Michael Krigsman: Michael Wolf, any final thoughts about the application or about this convergence and how it relates to business people? Any final thoughts at all?

Michael Wolf: First of all, the user will really remain supreme. Expect that interactivity for business applications and consumer applications. Look to things like video games and think about how they can be emulated in what you're doing.

Then finally, expect that a lot of this is going to be enabled by technologies that we haven't talked about today: 5G, 6G, much more processing power that are going to put more control into the hands of users and are going to make it so much easier to access everything.

Michael Krigsman: Okay. A very quick 45 minutes. It's gone by really fast. I'd like to say a huge thank you to Michael Wolf. He is the CEO of Activate Consulting. Michael, thank you again for being here. I really, really appreciate it.

Michael Wolf: Thank you, too, everybody who has sent in questions via Twitter. This is really exciting to do this. Thank you so much, Michael. I've had a great time.

Michael Krigsman: As Michael said, a huge thank you to everybody who watched and especially to those folks who contributed questions. Now, before you go, please subscribe to our YouTube channel, hit the subscribe button at the top of our website, and tell your friends so we can send you our newsletter. It's a good newsletter, and we won't spam you.

Thanks so much, everybody. Have a great day. Check out CXOTalk.com, and we will see you next time. Bye-bye.